Migrants....

General chit chat forum that may or may not relate to homebrewing.
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OldNelly
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Re: Migrants....

Post by OldNelly » 2 years ago

XXXXX wrote:
OldNelly wrote:
jamatron wrote: That's digging ditches ( is that even a job anymore?)
Yeah, I've got a journeymans certificate in ditch digging aka plumbing. As for the rape gangs I'm sure he was referring to the new years attacks in Colonge, Germany.
Dig up any dino bones? :)
No dino bones yet, but I have found a few cool bottles.
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Doc_Drive
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Re: Migrants....

Post by Doc_Drive » 2 years ago

XXXXX wrote:Jam's right about people not speaking up/out anymore, that's for sure.

Nowadays it seems as though someone who dares criticize anyone or anything else is automatically either an ignorant jackass, or an intolerant biggot--depending on the topic at hand. Which is sort of ironic, isn't it? Other people being intolerant of your supposed intolerance?

So, we continue to see these clashes overseas and even here. Neither group seems willing to concede. How do you educate, negotiate, or find common ground between cultures that have quintessentially polar opposite values on things like finances, property, sexuality, modesty, God, social and core values? That's a question to be answered by smarter people than me.

A part of me wonders if two such cultures can ever peacefully coexist in the same neighborhoods without a substantial watering down of one or the other
. There's the old quote that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," and, yet, both sides believe they are on the right side of the argument.

Hate is surely not the answer, but when both groups feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, something's gotta give.

Oh what a world, what a world...
So, is watering down a bad thing or evolution? I mean we're doing everything on a global scale now. Isn't it just a matter of time until cultures merge?

Venari
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Re: Migrants....

Post by Venari » 2 years ago

Doc_Drive wrote: So, is watering down a bad thing or evolution? I mean we're doing everything on a global scale now. Isn't it just a matter of time until cultures merge?
One thing always stuck in my mind when I was a wee lad watching Star Trek: Why is it always the HUMANS that have to be polite and observe the cultures of other races? Then as I got older and realized that it was because the show was made in the states, and that it's always North Americans that have to be polite and observe the customs of others.

That's why nobody made a fuss when one of the "subsidised housing" projects raised a Somalian flag on the property here in Ottawa. We felt we had to respect their right to their own culture. Don't offend anybody else, and if you get offended, you can't say anything about it.

I don't think we should be like the states and demand total assimilation, but it shouldn't be a free pass on bringing the things you're escaping from.
I've never understood the policy against "necro threads" on almost every forum. Why tell us to use the search function for a particular topic, then complain when an older thread has a new post in it?

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XXXXX
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Re: Migrants....

Post by XXXXX » 2 years ago

Doc_Drive wrote:
XXXXX wrote:Jam's right about people not speaking up/out anymore, that's for sure.

Nowadays it seems as though someone who dares criticize anyone or anything else is automatically either an ignorant jackass, or an intolerant biggot--depending on the topic at hand. Which is sort of ironic, isn't it? Other people being intolerant of your supposed intolerance?

So, we continue to see these clashes overseas and even here. Neither group seems willing to concede. How do you educate, negotiate, or find common ground between cultures that have quintessentially polar opposite values on things like finances, property, sexuality, modesty, God, social and core values? That's a question to be answered by smarter people than me.

A part of me wonders if two such cultures can ever peacefully coexist in the same neighborhoods without a substantial watering down of one or the other
. There's the old quote that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," and, yet, both sides believe they are on the right side of the argument.

Hate is surely not the answer, but when both groups feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, something's gotta give.

Oh what a world, what a world...
So, is watering down a bad thing or evolution? I mean we're doing everything on a global scale now. Isn't it just a matter of time until cultures merge?
I don't know if it's ultimately a good or bad thing. In the sense of celebrating multiculturalism, I'd say the erosion of any given culture is inherently a bad thing. However, multicultural societies are supposed to exist peacefully while respecting each culture equally.

To answer your second question, I'd say yes it's only a matter of time until the edges get rounded and we all become essentially the same. The world is just too small anymore.
Mmmm... Beer... *drool*

kombat
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Re: Migrants....

Post by kombat » 2 years ago

Venari wrote:I don't think we should be like the states and demand total assimilation, but it shouldn't be a free pass on bringing the things you're escaping from.
That reminds me of a funny line from a little-known boxing movie, "The Hammer," where Adam Carolla's character is with some of his construction co-workers at one of their houses. They're all from Nicaragua, and watching a soccer match. They're cheering on their team, and Adam's character makes some sort of derisive comment about how soccer is popular in poor countries because all you need to play it is a ball. His Nicaraguan co-workers get offended and start defending their home country, and Adam's character says, "You guys sure seem to love Nicaragua except for the part where you risked your lives not to live there any more."

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Re: Migrants....

Post by oro » 2 years ago

I feel there is cultures that wont co-exist and that should be ok, having it choked down your throat all the time that you have to except the new cultures and drop or change our existing traditions is part of the issue.

As long as immigrants refuse to be a traditional "Canadian" there will be issues, predudice and fighting
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Warthaug
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Re: Migrants....

Post by Warthaug » 2 years ago

And what is a "traditional" Canadian? English-speaking protestant (Ontario), French-speaking Catholic (Quebec), various European-speaking individuals of varying religious backgrounds (ROC), Punjabi's and Chinees (BC), natives (all over)?

Ignoring my Metis quarter, my family came to Canada in the late 1800's, from Germany and Norway. Even in the 1990's the towns they settled (Kerobert, SK, as one example) you could walk into nearly any store and receive service in the old language, or for that matter strike up a conversation on any street corner in the father tongue. 3 generations in this country and yet German language, food and culture still dominated.

Punjab's and Chinese came to Canada about the same time, to build the Western end of the railroad. Those communities still exist in BC, still speak their old language and most still follow the religion and culture of the old country. In central BC there are Doukhobor communities which have been established since the 1930's where Russian is as common as English.

I think you need to leave small-town Ontario, because no where else in Canada will you find this imaginary "traditional" Canadian. Go back far enough and we're all immigrants, and vestiges of our historical cultures remain present and common across the country.
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Warthaug
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Re: Migrants....

Post by Warthaug » 2 years ago

Venari wrote:One thing always stuck in my mind when I was a wee lad watching Star Trek: Why is it always the HUMANS that have to be polite and observe the cultures of other races?
Because Gene Roddenberry envisioned a egalitarian future in which most human followed the principals of humanism, and they were acting in accordance with morals and ethical guidelines held by that belief system. And, as any real fan knows, lots of humans in the star trek universe fell far short of those mores.
Venari wrote:I don't think we should be like the states and demand total assimilation, but it shouldn't be a free pass on bringing the things you're escaping from.
Nor does that happen. Day-to-day things in some cultures ('honour' killings, FGM, arranged marriages, child brides, etc) are illegal here, and immigrants who participate in those cultural practices on Canadian soil go to jail (suffer legal consequences, etc) for doing so.

B
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oro
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Re: Migrants....

Post by oro » 2 years ago

Warthaug wrote:And what is a "traditional" Canadian? English-speaking protestant (Ontario), French-speaking Catholic (Quebec), various European-speaking individuals of varying religious backgrounds (ROC), Punjabi's and Chinees (BC), natives (all over)?

Ignoring my Metis quarter, my family came to Canada in the late 1800's, from Germany and Norway. Even in the 1990's the towns they settled (Kerobert, SK, as one example) you could walk into nearly any store and receive service in the old language, or for that matter strike up a conversation on any street corner in the father tongue. 3 generations in this country and yet German language, food and culture still dominated.

Punjab's and Chinese came to Canada about the same time, to build the Western end of the railroad. Those communities still exist in BC, still speak their old language and most still follow the religion and culture of the old country. In central BC there are Doukhobor communities which have been established since the 1930's where Russian is as common as English.

I think you need to leave small-town Ontario, because no where else in Canada will you find this imaginary "traditional" Canadian. Go back far enough and we're all immigrants, and vestiges of our historical cultures remain present and common across the country.

In my eyes its a person who came here from where ever, brought there customs, language, food etc. but never expected something for free, learned english immediately, joined existing traditions in Canada like xmas, thanksgiving, easter or at least let them existing without interference and certainly would never ask they be stopped or changed. These people made community's in peace without bringing there wars here to Canada, that's what they left behind why bring it here. They did not hate us they loved us wanted to be a Canadian.

But your reply is perfect and exactly why this post was started, we cant even say "traditional Canadian" without recourse or immediate assumption for the worst, because I am a white male I must be making a racial comment.

And yes I live in the country, but got to visit the big city once, even got to take ma, pa and the little ones on one of those underground trains that go really fast :facepalm: .
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Warthaug
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Re: Migrants....

Post by Warthaug » 2 years ago

oro wrote:
Warthaug wrote:And what is a "traditional" Canadian? English-speaking protestant (Ontario), French-speaking Catholic (Quebec), various European-speaking individuals of varying religious backgrounds (ROC), Punjabi's and Chinees (BC), natives (all over)?

Ignoring my Metis quarter, my family came to Canada in the late 1800's, from Germany and Norway. Even in the 1990's the towns they settled (Kerobert, SK, as one example) you could walk into nearly any store and receive service in the old language, or for that matter strike up a conversation on any street corner in the father tongue. 3 generations in this country and yet German language, food and culture still dominated.

Punjab's and Chinese came to Canada about the same time, to build the Western end of the railroad. Those communities still exist in BC, still speak their old language and most still follow the religion and culture of the old country. In central BC there are Doukhobor communities which have been established since the 1930's where Russian is as common as English.

I think you need to leave small-town Ontario, because no where else in Canada will you find this imaginary "traditional" Canadian. Go back far enough and we're all immigrants, and vestiges of our historical cultures remain present and common across the country.
In my eyes its a person who came here from where ever, brought there customs, language, food etc. but never expected something for free, learned english immediately, joined existing traditions in Canada like xmas, thanksgiving, easter or at least let them existing without interference and certainly would never ask they be stopped or changed. These people made community's in peace without bringing there wars here to Canada, that's what they left behind why bring it here. They did not hate us they loved us wanted to be a Canadian.
You started off with a claim that todays immigrants do not want to integrate; I simply pointed out that the tenancy of immigrants to hold onto their old culture is as old as immigrants and that today's immigrants are no different. Your immigrant ancestors were unlikely to have been any different than those arriving today - likely they settled in areas that had high levels of immigrants from the same place, held onto their traditions and culture as long as they could, etc. xmas, thanksgiving and easter are christian holidays, not Canadian things. A Punjabi-Canadian immigrant doesn't celebrate them, and if run into a Punjabi in BC there is a good chance that they've been here as long as many of your ancestors. For that matter I don't celebrate those holidays either - so I guess I'm not a "traditional Canadian" in your books either, despite the fact that some of my ancestors have been here for something like ten thousand years...

As for the rest of your rant, I've spent much of my life living in neighbourhoods with large immigrant communities, from the west coast through to the east. And not once did I encounter what you claim to be the norm. Most work - and work harder than us "old-stock" Canadians do (prior to citizenship, maintaining employment is required to retain most forms of immigrant status). Most are peaceful (statistically speaking, immigration reduces crime), most are happy to be here and proud of their citizenship.
oro wrote: But your reply is perfect and exactly why this post was started, we cant even say "traditional Canadian" without recourse or immediate assumption for the worst, because I am a white male I must be making a racial comment.
I made no such assumption.

Rather I assumed that you were engaged in confirmation bias (the assumption that what you encounter in your community is reflective of how things (Canada in this case) works at large). You confirmed that my assumption was correct, in your re-definition of the term "traditional Canadian" as people who speak English and celebrate christian holidays. I'd point out that in my first reply to you that I defined the "traditional Canadain" in Ontario as just that - English protestant. But that's ontario, which is but one small part of our country. The point of my post - which you clearly missed - is that your "traditional Canadian" doesn't exist - it varys greatly depending on which part of Canada you are from. The french catholics were here before your English-protestant ancestors, and yet you've excluded them as "traditional Canadians" based on your claim that a "traditional Canadian" must speak English. But in Quebec, as well as parts of the maritimes and in a few areas in northern Sask and Alta, they are very much the "traditional Canadians" and English-speaking proestants the rare exceptions. My great-grandfather never spoke English - why would he; no one else in that area did either; to speak only English would put you at a disadvantage and exclude you from the comminties in that part of Canada. Your English-protestant is a "traditional Canadian" in Ontario and parts of the maritimes; elsewhere the 'traditional Canadian" looks very, very different.

B
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