Keith's Clone

General homebrewing talk that doesn't fall specifically within the categories below.
oro
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by oro » 5 years ago

Hes a BIAB brewer stuck mash with corn wont be an issue
Beer has food value, food has no beer value...

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Wingeezer
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by Wingeezer » 5 years ago

gm- wrote:I also have the original Keith's IPA recipe if you are interested, quite different from the fizzy piss it is today.

If no one is is interested, I am! trying old recipes sound like fun!

Keith's seem to making a bit of an effort these days into attracting people who are into craft brews with their series of brews featuring different hops. You'd think it might be something for them to consider to put out an "Original" Keith's IPA as a premium beer to see how it flies. Don't suppose it is likely to happen though, Fizzy piss sells so much better!

Brian
Save the whales ...................................... collect the whole set.

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SeanGodd
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by SeanGodd » 5 years ago

Wingeezer wrote:
gm- wrote:I also have the original Keith's IPA recipe if you are interested, quite different from the fizzy piss it is today.

If no one is is interested, I am! trying old recipes sound like fun!

Keith's seem to making a bit of an effort these days into attracting people who are into craft brews with their series of brews featuring different hops. You'd think it might be something for them to consider to put out an "Original" Keith's IPA as a premium beer to see how it flies. Don't suppose it is likely to happen though, Fizzy piss sells so much better!

Brian
I missed this post gm-! I would like it too!!! :stirpot:
Cheers!!

Sean Goddard
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Whitewater Brewing Co.

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bellybuster
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by bellybuster » 5 years ago

I like the keiths Hop series, all quite good hoppy light tasting beers.

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JimmehBrew
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by JimmehBrew » 5 years ago

gm- wrote:I also have the original Keith's IPA recipe if you are interested, quite different from the fizzy piss it is today.

Weeeeeelllllwe are waiting ? I would like to see please and thank you :wave:
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gm-
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by gm- » 5 years ago

Ok, this research was done by a guy over on the brewnosers forum, called mr. X, so I am in no way taking credit for this, but this sounds like a very solid english stock ale recipe, hoping to brew it sometime over the summer.
In the case of Alexander Keith’s original beers from the early 1900s, the people of Nova Scotia were given a great treasure of brewing information from Bruce Oland (Oland and Sons purchased Alexander Keith’s and Sons in 1928). Of the many gems in the Nova Scotia Archives on Dalhousie University’s’ campus, the original hand-written Alexander Keith’s and Sons recipe books from 1913-1917 are most intriguing. Here is where the past begins to take form - a photo negative, waiting to be developed. But will a person be able to say with certainty that s/he is able re-create 100% a beer from the past with these recipes. No, but then again, when you look at the recipes, methods, and beers from that era, the original brewers weren't capable of, and maybe not even interested in, such conformity. The beers were a shotgun pattern, not a rifle shot, and maybe that’s not so bad. Alexander Keith’s ales didn't need to be the same everytime, just good. This is a far better scenario than the opposite.
So how do we start recreating this beer? Let us come to grips with our goal and our boundaries with an analogy. If you want to build an original Ford Model-T, you could dig up an old manual, amass bits and pieces of technical information, go down to an automobile museum and take measurements, etc., and rebuild a Ford Model-T. Will it be exactly the same as the original 1908 Model-T sitting in the museum? No. Will it be far closer to the original than going down to the Ford dealer, buying a Taurus and writing Model-T on the bumper? D’uh.
In Keith’s oldest recipe books, the recipe names do not contain the terms Pale Ale or India Pale Ale, regardless of what was on the public labels. The terms were Stock Ale, Vatt, sometimes nothing, and sometimes just a designation of the final product’s destination – P.E.I. for example. So you need to use some intuition to figure out what recipe would be an India Pale Ale - in terms of what we consider to be the characteristics of an IPA. The grain bill below is Stock Ale (June 6, 1917), destined for Charlottetown. It’s interesting in that it uses some crystal malt, whereas most other AK & Sons beers (other than the stout) from this era were 100% base malt. It’s a good example of an IPA.
5300 lbs malt
90 lbs crystal malt
170 lbs hops

Wow. Stop with all the details.

How are we going to wrestle a final product out of those three lines? For one, this recipe is the least descriptive of the older entries. Some of Keith’s more descriptive recipes for similar beers will be used to fill in the blanks. But first the malt must be addressed.



Malt
There is a very high probability that the base malt was domestic pale malt, almost certain to be 6-row. The crystal malt is a bit trickier. Information from experienced brewers and maltsters say 70-80 lovibond wouldn’t be a bad choice. I didn’t have access to that particular color, so I blended 60 and 120 lov 50/50. That’s not going to equal 80 lov, but it’s certainly not out of the question. It puts us in the ballpark, maybe even closer. But what’s the OG/FG? 1.054-1.058 are good estimates supported by tax records at the turn of the century, and estimates from experienced brewers on grain bills and mash volumes. FG is tricky too. It is recorded on rare occasion, but seems to be all over the map. Mash temperature appears to be 154-156f from the records, so a higher FG is expected. About 1.016 or even higher to 1.020 is my best guess, and I feel that this is accurate based on the handwritten records and general brewing principles.

Hops
The hops are even less descriptive. Looking back through the other recipes from that era you see Kent, Oregon, B.C., N.Y.S. (New York State), and some other designations that are difficult to determine. But with the exception of the N.Y.S. hops, it is a reasonable guess that East Kent Golding/Fuggles would be a suitable hop to use now. The N.Y.S. hops were probably Cluster, which is thought to be a hybrid of NA and European hops. It would likely be higher in AA than the other hops being used, and it is also a very high co-humuolone type. Speaking of AA, that needs to be addressed. The average AA of these hops might run 3-3.25%, with the Cluster maybe being higher at 4%. A breakdown from stock ale (but with a lighter grain bill) is as follows:

100 B.C.
45 N.Y.S.
15 Kent

Fascinating. I guess pencil lead must have been at a premium. We’ll assume those amounts are lbs.

Here’s my best guess on the rest. I think the B.C. hops are either Fuggles or Goldings, with an AA of 2.75%. The N.Y.S. is most likely Cluster at 3.75 AA, and the Kent is most likely 3 AA. But how are they added to the boil? There is no information on when they were adding late hops from this era. The best estimate I could make was to use records from the late 40s (when the beers were becoming more restrained in character) and use a bit of late hopping at 15 minutes, the 15 lbs of Kent. Overall, a hop rate of 1.8lbs/barrel (11.25 oz for a 12 gallon batch) is calculated. An estimate of the IBU for this rate of hopping is in the low 50s.The problem now is finding hops with that low an AA. The best you can do if you can’t find hops at that low an AA is to reduce the boil time for the bittering hops. While 60-90 minutes is fairly typical for maximum bitterness extraction, that time will probably have to move downward toward 35-40 minutes to attain the desired bitterness and still keep the high amount of vegetable matter. The aroma hops AA aren’t so critical. In conclusion, for the bittering addition(s), Fuggles/Goldings plus Cluster are the best choice. Goldings at 15 minutes should be about 1-1.5 oz (again for a 12 gallon batch). Brewing software is your friend here.

Boil Time
There is no indication in the oldest records of boil time, but there is evidence of longer boils, up to 2.5 hours in the beers from the late 40s. I think a boil of 2 hours would not be unreasonable. I am not an expert on taxation in the brewing industry, but if the brewers were being taxing by pound of malt, it may have made sense to sparge heavy to get the most sugars from that malt, balanced by energy costs and oversparge limitations. This would require longer boils. So where are we now for a homebrewed batch of 12 gallons (assuming 82% mash efficiency):

24.00 lb Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 98.2 %
0.20 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 0.82 %
0.20 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 0.82 %

The water for some of these beers was sharpened with brewing salts. You will have to adjust this to your own situation. Some gypsum/chalk will address this if needed. I wouldn’t go Burton water crazy. Use restraint, maybe an SO4 of about 200.

Yeast
Archives indicate that AK & Sons were getting yeast from Molson’s. Seibel Bry 264 is thought to be Molson’s yeast and wYeast 1272 is pretty close to this (according to a brewer I know). I went a bit more British with wYeast 1028, fermenting around 68-69f, with no bottled O2.

Packaging
Bottling is one thing, barrels are another. I haven’t done much research on what they were doing for barrelling, but I believe they would have been using oak barrels for their non-bottled beer. Would there be some oak character? It’s difficult to say with any certainty because of many variables. It might be worth adding .5 oz of medium toast French oak to a batch for comparison.

Carbonation
I believe a carbonation level of 2.1 volumes of CO2 or less are warranted. Lab analysis from 1949 indicates 2.1 volumes.

There it is; go brew yours.

This recipe brought to you by the letter X.
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Fermenting:
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Mattroid
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by Mattroid » 5 years ago

gm, I would be interested to know the original recipe keiths' used to use, I'm from Halifax and would be fun to try making the original sometime, thanks.

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SeanGodd
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by SeanGodd » 5 years ago

Mattroid wrote:gm, I would be interested to know the original recipe keiths' used to use, I'm from Halifax and would be fun to try making the original sometime, thanks.
Its posted right above you post matt LOL. Guess you missed it. It is very light on info though. I would say more of a reference then the actual recipe.
Cheers!!

Sean Goddard
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gm-
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by gm- » 5 years ago

SeanGodd wrote:
Mattroid wrote:gm, I would be interested to know the original recipe keiths' used to use, I'm from Halifax and would be fun to try making the original sometime, thanks.
Its posted right above you post matt LOL. Guess you missed it. It is very light on info though. I would say more of a reference then the actual recipe.
The original recipe is up there, from the original brewlogs :) But some major detective work is needed to translate that to what we call a recipe, but the quote that I posted does a good job. Here is it as a 5 gal batch, set up the way we are used to.
Recipe: Keiths Original
Brewer: G
Asst Brewer:
Style: English IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.72 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 6.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 51.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.4 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.10 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent 1 -
5.20 kg Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 98.1 %
0.05 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 0.9 %
0.05 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 4 0.9 %
55.00 g Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 48.5 IBUs
10.00 g Goldings, B.C. [5.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 3.1 IBUs
1.0 pkg London Ale Yeast (Wyeast Labs #1028) [12 Yeast 7 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 5.30 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 3.65 gal of water at 75.7 C 68.9 C 45 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.11gal, 3.36gal) of 75.6 C water
Coming up: Dubbel
Fermenting:
On tap: Cucumber Saison / Simcoe MO SMaSH

deltapapatango
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Re: Keith's Clone

Post by deltapapatango » 10 months ago

gm- wrote:
<span title="|29 Apr 2014|, 13:02">5 years ago</span>
I also have the original Keith's IPA recipe if you are interested, quite different from the fizzy piss it is today.
Please share. Old post yes.

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